Episode 12: Nice Churchy Patriarchy
with author Liz Cooledge Jenkins
Amy is joined by author and preacher Liz Cooledge Jenkins to discuss her book, Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism, and dig into ongoing tensions between egalitarianism and complementarianism, plus advice for individuals no longer feeling aligned with their church community.
Our Guest
Liz Cooledge Jenkins
Liz Cooledge Jenkins is a writer, preacher, former college campus minister, and the author of Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism. She writes at the intersections of faith, feminism, and social justice, and her work can be found at places like Sojourners, The Christian Century, Christians for Social Action, and Feminism and Religion, as well as her new substack, Growing into Kinship, and her blog: lizcooledgejenkins.com.
Amy McPhie Allebest: I remember one day at church about ten years ago, I had just given the talk, or the sermon, to our congregation. I had spent a long time preparing that talk and I had brought in ideas from various thinkers that I knew would be intellectually stimulating as well as inspiring. And afterward, I walked past a man who held an important leadership position in the church and he said to me, “Thanks for that talk, that was so cute.” Has that ever happened to you? What do you do in a situation like that?
How about when I defended my master's thesis at Stanford and a different male church leader, with whom I'm very close, attended my presentation and then afterward he bragged about me: “You should have seen her up there teaching a room full of adults.” It took a second for me to register why it felt like I was being punched in the gut, when he obviously felt like he was giving me a compliment. Has that ever happened to you?
If these scenarios sound familiar, you may be a member of a so-called benevolent patriarchy. In a religious context, this is what Christian author Liz Cooledge Jenkins calls “nice churchy patriarchy”. Jenkins’s new book is titled Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism, and I am so excited to welcome Liz to the podcast today. Hi, Liz!
Liz Jenkins: Hi, I am so excited to be here. Thank you so much for having me.
AA: I am really excited for this conversation. Liz and I were just chatting before we started, and I was saying it feels like we're members of the same family, but maybe cousins. We’re working in different areas, but we have so much in common. I just loved your book. We usually start with a professional bio, so I'll introduce you professionally and then you can tell us more of your own personal story after that.
Liz Cooledge Jenkins is a writer, preacher, former college campus minister, and the author of Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism. She writes at the intersections of faith, feminism, and social justice, and her work can be found at places like Sojourners, The Christian Century, Christians for Social Action, and Feminism and Religion, as well as her new Substack, Growing into Kinship, and her blog at lizCooledgejinkins.com. Liz lives in the Seattle area with her husband and their black cat, Athena. And we have a gray cat named Minerva, so this is yet another thing that we have in common, a mythologically named cat!
LJ: That's funny. Love it.
AA: Yeah, Liz, thanks again for being here. I'm wondering if you could introduce us to you a little more personally. Tell us where you're from and the influences that brought you to the work that you do today.
LJ: Yeah, totally. I grew up in the Seattle area in a church community that, if you're familiar with the Christian world, would be kind of considered a mainline Protestant community. The denomination is Presbyterian PCUSA. That was a church where there were no, as far as I was aware anyway, no real questions about whether women should be in leadership positions. There were always female elders, as far as I remember. And the senior pastor was a man, but on the weeks when he didn't preach, the female pastors were just as likely to preach as any of the male associate pastors. So things felt pretty equal when I was growing up, and I didn't really think twice about it.
And I also grew up in a family where my parents really didn't want there to be any gendered limitations on me, and I grew up kind of thinking that's how the world is. And maybe there were some issues in the past, but not really in the present. So then I moved to California to go to college. I did my undergrad at Stanford and kind of wandered around thinking about being a pre-med for a little bit, and then settled into a major in cognitive science. And when I moved to California to go to college, I needed to find a new church, and I didn't really have a great sense of what I should be looking for or what kinds of questions I should be asking. I identified as a Christian, but I didn't really know many of the nuances between mainline Protestant or evangelical churches, or conservative or progressive churches. So I found a church that I felt like I connected to, and people were really nice and I just enjoyed the services and the people there.
And it took several years for me to become aware of some of the ways that patriarchy functioned in that space and to become frustrated with that. I think it took a year or two before I even realized that women weren't allowed to be elders, for example, at that church, because I didn't know that that was still a thing and I didn’t think to ask those questions. So that's some of my background and where I'm coming from. I basically wandered into evangelicalism as a young adult and stayed there for a decade or so, and I now find myself in a place of trying to unpack all of the things that I was taught there. And part of that journey also led me to seminary, which was also a really great space to unpack a lot of things, but also a space where men and women were still not quite equal, and I'm sure we'll get into that later, too. So, that's been my journey.
AA: Wonderful. For people who aren't familiar with this, maybe you could orient us even to the term evangelicalism, because I think people know basically about the difference between Catholicism and Protestantism. But within the Protestant tradition, there are so, so many branches. And even within evangelicalism, then that's kind of a broad umbrella, right? Could you orient us to those terms a little bit?
LJ: Yeah. There is such a broad world within Christianity, and within Protestantism and then even within evangelicalism, for sure. And I think evangelicalism is also kind of a slippery term. I feel like it's evolved over time or it could mean different things to different people, so I'll just share my experience with it. I think when I first wandered into the evangelical world, to me evangelicalism was a way of saying that we take the Bible really seriously and we take evangelism seriously. We think that God loves people and that we have the way for people to experience God's love and salvation and we need to share that. So that's where I was at when I got involved in that. And then I think it took me several years to realize that even though there is a lot of variety within the evangelical world, the majority, at least of white evangelicals, are often pretty politically conservative and often connect their religious beliefs with all sorts of political ones, from opposing gay marriage to opposing abortion rights and that sort of thing. So, it's this religious term that has to do with usually biblical inerrancy, believing that the Bible doesn't have mistakes in it, or often room for nuance and interpretation. And it also kind of converges with this politically conservative, right-wing identity.
AA: Okay, that's super helpful. And while we're on the subject of defining terms, one of my big objectives that I wanted to understand more about, even when starting to read your book, was understanding complementarianism. Because that's a term that has come up a lot, especially as I've been digging around more on social media and seeing social media accounts in really traditional Christian spaces, I've encountered this a lot. And your book talks about it a lot, and you say that there are kind of two schools of thought. There's hard complementarianism and there's soft complementarianism on one hand, and that's in contrast to egalitarianism. Could you define those terms for us?
LJ: Yeah, totally. I would say that complementarianism is a set of beliefs or theologies or practices that tries to say that men and women have equal value and worth before God, but should have different roles, both when it comes to leadership and church ministry and when it comes to relationships and marriage and family. There are a lot of different variations within it, but it means that there are some gender limitations on what women are and aren't supposed to be doing. And that's made very explicit as opposed to our broader world, which might at least think that things should be equal, even if it's not actually. Within that, as you mentioned, the church that I was a part of for eleven years was a conservative evangelical church which would consider themselves soft complementarianism. And by that, they basically meant that they didn't place as many restrictions on women in ministry as a hard complementarian church would. In our context, that meant that women could have the pastor title, but weren't allowed to be one of the main preaching pastors who did most of the church-wide teaching and formation of church-wide theology and thinking. And that women were not allowed to be elders, the elder board being the group of people that leads the church, kind of the lay leadership of the church which makes all the important decisions.
“even though there is a lot of variety within the evangelical world, the majority, at least of white evangelicals, are often pretty politically conservative and often connect their religious beliefs with all sorts of political ones”
And in a hard complementarian church, you might find that women are not allowed to be pastors at all. Maybe they're not allowed to be teaching mixed groups, like the comment that you got in your master's thesis. It'd be kind of an unexpected thing for women to be teaching adults of all genders. My church wasn't quite that extreme, but there were a lot of restrictions placed on women anyway. And then egalitarianism in contrast is the belief that none of those restrictions should exist. That people of all genders should be doing the things that they are good at and gifted at and excited about and curious about, and should be able to explore their passions and who they are regardless of gender.
AA: Fantastic. Thank you. There's a quote that I wanted to read from your book where you say: “In some ways, soft complementarianism is just a way of saying, ‘Yes, we think the Bible is patriarchal. Yes, we think God is patriarchal. And that is all the way things should be. But no, we're not bad people. We're not like those other complementarians over there. You know, the bad ones, the ones who oppress women and enable abuse.’” I thought it was so interesting that in those divisions, I guess with soft complementarians, they can compare themselves and say, like, “You should feel lucky, we're so progressive,” right? Is there kind of that attitude within those?
LJ: Yeah, I totally felt that. I felt like as a woman I was always made very aware that our church was less restrictive than many. I think that sometimes when you're in that evangelical world, sometimes more progressive Protestant churches are not quite considered legitimately Christian. And so you're kind of enmeshed in this evangelical world, and you're looking around and the churches that you consider your options or your peers are within that conservative space where it's kind of on a spectrum of soft to hard complementarianism. So, yeah, I think that as a young woman it did feel like I was being told, often indirectly, but still getting this message that I should be grateful for whatever crumbs our male leaders were letting fall from the table, when over time that did not work for me.
AA: That's really interesting. One thing that resonates for me is that as LDS people in the Mormon church, I don't know that we compared ourselves as much to other Christian denominations or branches. But I remember friends of mine who were Mormon saw the Netflix show Unorthodox about the Orthodox Jewish tradition, or when they would see Muslims with hijabs, like, “Can you believe the patriarchal oppression in other religions?” You know what I mean? The contrast of “we're so lucky” and the hypocrisy and the inability to see our own patriarchy is kind of stunning to me sometimes. And I guess it's just human nature to want to compare and make yourself feel better about the situation you're in and to judge others, too.
LJ: Yeah, it is stunning. And stunning for men in that situation to think that they have the right to determine what is or isn't oppressive to women. To determine that these other things are, but we're not.
AA: Yes.
LJ: We have to listen to women about what does or doesn't feel oppressive.
AA: Exactly. Okay, so you repeat over and over in your book that the people that you encountered and worked with all along the way, in all the different congregations and in seminary, it seems like they were really good-hearted people. And that is reflected in your title, Nice Churchy Patriarchy. Can you tell us what you mean by that?
LJ: Yeah. With that title I was trying to get at, like you said, those communities where people don't necessarily have the intention of causing harm or of oppressing others. People are generally good-hearted and well-intentioned and thoughtful, kind people. And yet, there are these structures and systems and policies and theologies that are really harming women, and also harming the whole community when women are kept back from using their gifts freely and being fully who they are. I think that there have been a lot of situations in evangelical churches where there are really not nice forms of patriarchy. There are really abusive pastors and really, really strict restrictions put on women, much more so than the church that I was a part of. And I think those things can strike us as more obviously damaging and obviously awful, and kind of “get out of that situation” kind of things. And I think that it's good that we're talking about those things. I think we really need to be talking about all of that because it's still very real and very common.
And at the same time, there are situations that are not exactly like that, and yet there are still things that are not okay. Even if everybody means well, even if nobody's really abusing their power exactly, there are still structures that are really, really damaging but in a much more subtle and insidious way. And I feel like that's been my experience. I feel like I've been some combination of lucky and wise, but largely just lucky, to not be a part of some of those other kinds of communities. And yet, in this long journey of sorting through my frustrations with the communities I have been a part of, I feel like there's a lot to unpack that's really common and that a lot of women relate to and are also unpacking. And we can do that together.
AA: Well, that's certainly the experience I had when I was reading the book. Like I said, I found it so relatable and so validating and helpful. And I've been reading a ton and working in this space for several years now, and you really articulated some things that I had felt and had not had language for that really, really helped me. I immediately bought a copy for my sister and I intend to give it to lots of my friends. It was a very, very helpful book.
LJ: Thank you.
AA: I wonder if you could tell us about some of those instances where, kind of that I talked about in my life in the intro, where you're going about your life and then have this moment of like, “I know this man likes me and this is a good-hearted person,” but then they say something that hurts and makes you feel confused and yuck and kind of not sure why. And then you unpack, well, here's why. Here are the structural things.
LJ: Yeah. I think the first time that I can recall that happening was when I was just a sophomore in college. So I was still fairly new at this church in the grand scheme of things, and still not really quite aware of what was going on gender-wise in this church. But I was part of a college Bible study group that was kind of a mix of students and some volunteers from the church who were not students. And our college pastor was leading us in a discussion about women in ministry, and that was probably the first time I'd ever been part of a discussion like that. Because as I mentioned, the church that I grew up in didn't really feel the need to debate about it, and I didn't really know that there was still a need to debate about it. So we were having this discussion, and I think I was mostly listening because this was all a little bit new and foreign to me, and somebody said something like, “Well, if women want to be pastors, or preach or lead in other ways, why not let them?” To which one of the male volunteers, a guy maybe in his thirties, immediately replied, “Yeah, but giving people what they want isn't always what's best for them.” And I was like, ooh, well that doesn't sit right.
And I don't think I had a lot of words or context to be able to unpack that. I certainly wasn't able to respond in the moment, but it really hit me at a gut level that that doesn't feel right. At that time I had no interest in being a pastor or preacher or church leader myself. I assumed I would probably be a doctor, that kind of thing. But something about “giving people what they want isn't always what's best for them,” as I thought about it more I realized that it comes from a worldview where men are the people in charge and they're the ones who get to give or not give as they think is right. And I think there's something about that that's really warped and really damaging. So that was one of those moments when that just didn't sit right. And like we've talked about, this was a nice person, a kind person, a generous person, somebody I like, right? So to hear that from somebody I otherwise trust and have good feelings toward is, yeah, things like that are really jarring. And I think they really add up over time and impact the sense of emotional safety and confidence that you have as a young woman in that kind of space.
AA: For sure. And also because in some contexts, that's true. The thing he said was true. It's not always best to give people what they want. But as you think about it, I so related to this, that in the moment you're not prepared for it, you don't have either the language or it just blindsides you. And then over the course of the next couple of days, you're like, wait, that applies to a parent-child relationship or a teacher-student, like clearly a hierarchical authority and then subservient role relationship. But that's tricky, right? When the thing they say is true sometimes and so it's like, wait, I hadn't quite thought of an argument to that yet.
LJ: Yeah. And that parent-child relationship feels especially salient to me because I do think that's how men in these patriarchal spaces often treat women, right? Like, “We have goodwill toward you, but you're like the children that we need to instruct and control.” And maybe control is the wrong word for a healthy parent-child relationship, but instruct and guide and set boundaries, that kind of thing, instead of trusting you as a fellow adult to do that for yourselves.
AA: Yeah, for sure. Another incident in the book that I really loved and was really memorable for me was the embarrassing incident of the unplugged earbuds. Can you tell us about that?
LJ: Yeah. So the context there, this was moving along to later in college. I think I was a senior at this point, and I was dating a serious Christian dude for the first time in my life. And that was in some ways a great relationship, again, he was not a bad guy. And yet he was coming from a more conservative Christian background. And I think as we were all part of the same Christian group together in college, that took me some time to parse out. We had all come from different places with totally different expectations, and that started to become more clear over the course of the relationship.
And one of the moments when it became very clear was when he sent me these two talks to listen to, and they were called something like “What He Must Be” and “What She Must Be”, and they were about gender roles and relationships according to this one pastor who was giving these talks. And so I was kind of thinking, okay, I don't really buy into this. I don't really think that there's a “what he must be” and “what she must be.” I probably won't like this, but I care about and respect my boyfriend and he sent them to me so I'll at least give them a listen so we can talk about them. And so I put my earbuds in and I'm sitting there at my desk in my dorm room with the door open, listening to these talks. And my next door neighbor, who was a freshman guy that I was on friendly terms with, stopped by to say hi, and I said hi back, and then he looked kind of awkward and made some excuse for having to go. And I was like, oh, that's kind of weird. I don't really know what I did wrong, I thought we were friendly. Maybe he really just did have to go. Didn't think about it too much. Sure enough, a few minutes later, I realized that I had my earbuds in but they were not plugged into the computer. And so I was blasting these patriarchal Christian talks in my very secular liberal college dorm for everybody to hear, and I was like, "uhh, that just happened."
AA: So funny.
LJ: Yeah.
AA: So interesting. That, too, was so interesting because I think, correct me if I'm wrong, but what I kind of picked up from that scenario was that you were trying to have an open mind toward these talks. You're like, “I don't think I'll like it, but I'm going to try and see, I don't want to be closed-minded.” And I related to that too, with some things from my religious tradition, like, “I'm trying to accept this.” But I remember thinking about this with specific rituals that happened in the LDS temple, I remember as an adult thinking, “If my coworkers or if my peers who are not Mormon knew the patriarchal language that I participated in in the temple, I would be mortified and they would look at me like I was from another planet.” And sometimes running it through that filter of “If they heard what I'm actually listening to and trying to imbibe, that might be a red flag if I'm embarrassed for them to know.” Do you know what I mean?
LJ: Oh, totally. Yeah. And embarrassed on that level of like, this is oppressive toward women. I'm a woman. I'm listening to this. They're going to think that I buy into it, even if I don't. Yeah, totally. And maybe there shouldn't be shame associated with that, but I think there can be. And as you said, I think that's a good thing to listen to, that feeling of embarrassment. I'm not proud of this part of my religion. What do we do with this?
AA: Exactly. Because there are other parts, obviously, of religion that you think, “Yeah, they won't understand that but it aligns with my values and my integrity. I believe this and so I'm not embarrassed for you to know, even if it’s different.” It's a different thing if you're like, “Yeah, that feels yucky to me, too. I'm embarrassed that you knew.” You dodged a bullet, I guess, by knowing that your boyfriend at the time believed that stuff. Nice to know ahead of time. Okay, I've got another one that I've got to have you share from the book. And we won't go through the entire book because I want listeners to buy it and read it, but you talk about an incident where, I believe it was a talk going on, and a very charismatic and handsome pastor at the front talked about how God rewards righteous men. Can you talk about that?
LJ: Yeah. By this point I was in my mid-twenties and I spent a year on staff with the college ministry organization, like a parachurch ministry organization. So it was not a church at this point, although I did work for my church later. Anyhow, I was on staff with this college campus ministry organization and we had a weekly large group fellowship meeting on campus. And we invited this guest speaker, who was a church planter in the area, to come give a talk. And he brought a couple of people with him from his church, including his wife, who was in the audience along with the rest of the students. So he's introducing himself and he's trying to build rapport with the students and let them get to know him a little bit, you know, all good stuff. But his way of doing that was saying something like, “I've been a youth pastor for a long time and it's hard work and it doesn't pay much, but God rewards you for all those sacrifices. And God rewarded me by giving me a smokin’ hot wife.” And he invited his wife to stand up and turn around so that students could see how smokin’ hot she was. And I think at the time I felt a little uncomfortable, but I didn't necessarily think about it a ton.
And it was actually a female colleague of mine on staff with that ministry who had to bring it up in our next staff meeting and share why this wasn't okay with her, at which point I was like, “Oh yeah, why didn't I see that?” So, I think there are these things that can come to seem kind of normal or okay. And I was sharing that story with a friend who said something like, “Do they teach pastors that in seminary? To call your wife a smokin’ hot wife?” Because apparently it's kind of a trope, and I didn't know that at the time, that was the first time I had heard that. I think it was just this really insidious way of very casually objectifying his wife, with a subtle but very different tone from how I had heard other speakers introduce their spouse in terms of, you know, “Isn't it great that they're here to support me?” Or, “This is part of who I am in my life and we're getting to know each other.” I think I'd appreciated that when other speakers had pointed out their spouse in the audience or said nice things about them. But when you only say that someone's smokin’ hot and then you ask them to stand up and turn around and show that to everyone, and you frame that as like, “This is my reward. This is God's reward for me as a heterosexual man in ministry.” There's just a lot to unpack in that situation.
AA: Indeed. And I wonder how she felt, but I've seen this on social media with that exact verbiage of the smokin’ hot wife as a reward. And it's another one of those confusing things. I don't know how the wife felt, again, but to be called beautiful is a compliment but it's got barbs in it, and so it's you feel like you're a jerk if you call it out. It can be so complicated and difficult. Let's move on to some doctrinal discussions. You point out John the Baptist's statement, this is a part of the Bible where he's referring to Jesus and says “He must increase, but I must decrease.” And this is a story that speaks to humility and to foregrounding or centering Christ and to kind of fade into the background. But you write that that's not universally good advice. Can you talk about that for a minute?
““This is my reward. This is God’s reward for me as a heterosexual man...””
LJ: Yeah, this is something I've really had to unpack over time, because I believe in humility, I believe in centering Christ, like you said. And yet I think that sometimes parts of the Bible like that, where somebody expresses humility and says something like, “I must decrease and Christ must increase,” I think they can really be twisted to further oppress groups that are already oppressed or already marginalized in that church space. And I think that there's room for those kinds of things, but I think they need to be directed toward people in power who may need to decrease so that others can increase. Because John the Baptist was a person with a very specific role to play, and I think that that statement was very true for him and very honoring for both him and Jesus. He came to kind of pave the way for Jesus and to point people toward Jesus. And I think there are ways that we're all invited to do that, but it can look really different depending on who we are, and our social location, and where we come from, and how much power we have. The way I see it, God wants all people to flourish, and that requires justice and equality among all people. So, whether it's women or people of color or queer folks, whatever the context might be, those who don't have power in a situation don't need to decrease anymore. We don't need to decrease ourselves. We're already pretty low in the power structure. And I think that Jesus loves when we increase, I think Jesus wants people to flourish as equals and community with one another. And that means that those on the underside of the power structures find their agency and their voice, and claim their own dignity and worth. And that those who have had way too much power for too long find ways to step aside and make room for everybody else. There are ways that some of those Christian phrases can sound really nice, but when you try to apply them to everybody without taking into account all of the different circumstances and power dynamics, things can get really twisted.
AA: Thank you, Liz. That's so powerful. Another thing I wanted to ask you about is the discussion about whether or not women can preach. And because you talked about evangelicalism as being centered on the scripture, on the Bible as inerrant, I would imagine people would take the scripture at its word. And Paul has some things to say about women speaking in church, and this comes up a lot. I actually would like to talk about not so much the doctrine about whether women technically can or can't speak in church or can or can't preach, but you said something that was so helpful and so powerful to me about how to have those discussions. I think there was an incident where someone said, “Let's divide the room, men on one side and women on the other side. And women, tell us why you think women should be able to preach.” Tell us about that, Liz, because I thought it was so instructive to hear you talk about it.
LJ: There were so many different situations during those eleven years that I spent in that evangelical conservative church, where conversations and debates about women in ministry would come up at unexpected times. Like you mentioned, one of those was in this week-long seminary class that I took with some of the other church staff. And the male professor wanted to demonstrate a particular way of having a debate among people. Like, if you wanted to take this back and do this at your church covering whatever topics you're trying to cover. And so, he split us up into two sides of the room and asked one side to argue against women in ministry and the other side to argue for it. So the idea was that you're asked to argue a side that may or may not align with your personal beliefs, but you're supposed to come up with the best arguments you can for that. Which is nice, right? It could be an interesting way of having a discussion in a church setting on different sorts of things. But he picked a sample topic so we could try it out in class, and the topic was women in ministry, as I mentioned. And sitting through that sample debate as a woman was very stressful. Just hearing the arguments that people would make, even if they didn't actually believe in them, feels oppressive, right? I think just the fact that your full participation in your church community feels up for debate, even if it's in that classroom setting where you're not actually serious about it, hearing the things that people would say feels like your full humanity is up for debate.
And as a woman in a class of majority men, as I sat with that feeling and unpacked it, I realized that these conversations feel really different for women as opposed to men. And I don't know that men really recognize that. I don't think that that professor wanted to create a stressful experience for me or for other women in ministry in that room. I don't think he meant to make us feel like our humanity was up for debate or our capabilities were up for debate. And yet, that is kind of how it felt. I think that as long as some churches and some Christian environments restrict women from having certain positions of leadership, these debates will continue to happen. So, I'm not necessarily opposed to them happening, but as you said, I think that there's a lot that we can think about in terms of the way that they happen. I don't think that women should be basically forced to be a part of them. I think women should be able to opt out, and I think that women should get a heads-up when these conversations are going to happen so that we can choose whether or not we want to be a part of them so that we can be emotionally and mentally prepared for them. I think there are ways that these conversations often come up very casually, and it's casual for the men who debate these things, but it often doesn't feel casual for any women who are part of the conversation or just in the same room listening. So I want to see more recognition of that, that this really impacts us. This really impacts us in a way that it doesn't necessarily feel like it impacts men. It's not just a fun topic for a casual debate, it's our lives, it's our passions, it's our freedom or not.
AA: So helpful. That really gave me a note card I can put in my pocket for if that comes up next time. I do notice even still, even though I have so many more arrows in my quiver now and I know how to address lots of different issues, sometimes when I stumble into a situation like that and my emotions are heightened, it does become so stressful in my body that I really appreciate having that tool. Like I said, kind of a note card for next time. I'll just say “You know what? This is actually a really important topic, but because there's so much at stake for me here, can we talk about it another time so I have some time to prepare?” Even just saying that, I think, would be helpful for me so that I can gather my thoughts ahead of time or just opt out and just say, “This is really emotionally stressful because I don't think you have anything to lose in this conversation and I do.” Or, “You're in the position where you can make a decision that impacts me.” So yeah, just opting out or saying, “Can we do this later?” is a great idea.
LJ: And calling attention to those power dynamics, like you said, that sometimes people are not aware of.
AA: Yeah. Thank you for that. Up until this point in the book, you had been working in a complementarian setting, right, Liz? You had been in churches that were explicitly complementarian, and then you switched to an egalitarian evangelical church. Can you tell us about that and how their stated values were different and how it played out in practice?
LJ: Yeah. By the time that I decided I wanted to go to seminary, I was very ready to find an egalitarian seminary. And I did, I moved across the state to attend it. And I also needed to find a new church community at that time. And I would have left the complementarian church that I'd been going to forever anyway, but moving across the state was an easy way, I mean, there's just so much to process and unpack. I don't know that I was really ready to make a statement about it. But I did move away and found this egalitarian seminary in Southern California. And I think one of the things that really drew me to that space was that they had a lot of great language around men and women in ministry. They had been fully welcoming women to pursue any degrees they wanted to pursue since the ‘70s, if I remember right. They were really committed to egalitarianism and that was really different and really refreshing to be part of that space where nobody was saying explicitly that women should not serve in these roles because they're women. It was really freeing. It was great.
And as I came to realize, it was also a space that had a lot of work to do still, as most of our patriarchal society does, if we actually want to reach full equality. Some of the ways that it showed up for me were in some of the things that my male professors would say kind of casually, again, not intending any harm. And even in this case, fully committed to supporting women in ministry. And yet there were moments in those seminary classes with those male professors when it was not a comfortable place to be as a woman in seminary. I share a couple instances of this in the book, but I'll just share one of them. There was a professor who was sharing a story from the church that he grew up in, and it was an immigrant evangelical church in a rural community. And there was a person in that community who was well known for being, I don't remember exactly what the issues were, I think he was a drug dealer or all around not considered to be doing good things in that community. But he came to the church that my professor grew up in and converted and gave his life to Jesus. And people in the community were skeptical at first, because they had some reasons to be and they'd known him for a while. But it turned out that this was really a genuine conversion, and it was this beautiful thing where Jesus changed his life dramatically and he stopped doing all the bad things that he was doing and started doing a lot of good things in the community. And then my professor said something like, “He never really figured out how to treat women, but, you know, other than that it was this remarkable, wonderful conversion story.” And people kind of chuckled when he said that, and I think it was meant to be a joke. But I was looking around the room thinking, “Is anybody else not amused by this?” And I wasn't really sure. That made me feel like I have a lot of questions about what women are supposed to take away from that story in terms of our value, in terms of our worth, in terms of how important it is that we're treated well.
And I have a lot of questions about what the men in the room who are also training to be pastors and church leaders, what they're supposed to take away from that story about how important it is that women are treated well. So yeah, things like that, where it kind of blindsides you especially strongly because it's meant to be a space that's supportive of women, and people who make those comments are trying to be supportive of women. And yet we live in this world where women's lives and experiences are often not valued and that seeps into everything. It takes a lot of intentional swimming upstream to do something differently, and I think there's still a lot of work that needs to be done there.
AA: Mm-hm. For sure. This reminded me of another situation in a congregation where there was a man with a criminal record who was wanting to attend the congregation, and the pastor had this difficult decision to make of whether to allow the man to attend or not. Can you tell us about that situation?
LJ: Yeah. That situation was a very complicated one, and I'll spare you the details a bit. But one of the things that stood out to me from that is that it ended up being a situation where our male pastor was trying to weigh this desire for everybody to be able to come worship against a value for wanting the women in the congregation, specifically, given the situation with this man and his history, to feel safe. And there were two young female leaders who had most strongly expressed concerns and expressed a feeling of being uncomfortable, and they had some really good reasons for that. And as a part of the congregation that was less involved in that, but watching and talking to people and learning about the situation, I felt that the pastor was not taking these two women's valid concerns seriously. But it's one of those things where you're hearing different sides of it and you don't want to assume things.
And so I sat down with our male pastor to try to get a better sense of his perspective, and during that conversation he said something like, “This person who brought up these concerns has a certain kind of history of being sexually assaulted, and they're possibly acting out of that history and their own trauma as opposed to reacting appropriately to the present situation.” And then he brought in his own wife as a counterexample, saying that she feels fine around this person. She wants him to be able to come to church and worship with us, so what's the problem? And there was a lot to unpack there. And again, this was a pastor who is supportive of women in ministry and was supportive of me as a woman in ministry in a lot of ways. And yet when it comes down to some of these tricky situations of who do you believe, who do you value, who do you prioritize, there is a lot to unpack there. In the situation with his wife, I very much respect her right to have her own opinion even if it's different from mine or different from these other two women, but for her to be used like that as a way of discrediting another woman's voice I thought was a very insidious thing.
AA: Yeah. And to say that because that woman had allegedly had an experience with sexual assault prior, that that kind of discredited her instincts or her gut because it may be that she was overly sensitive. Instead of taking it more seriously, that she might have wisdom that he didn't have, that was really troubling. And I feel for him too, because certainly you don't want to exclude anyone from worship, and especially with the Christian mission of bringing people to Christ. I understand that's a really tricky situation, but it did seem like the women were not listened to. And that's dangerous, aside from being unjust, right?
LJ: Right. And I'll save for the book what actually ended up happening with that man.
AA: Yeah, you'll have to read the book for all the reasons. I highly, highly recommend the book. This actually reminds me of another section of the book where a pastor was listening to your concerns and asked you if you had been to therapy. Tell us about that.
LJ: Yeah, in the book I connect that a little bit with this other experience where the two young women leaders were not really listened to or taken seriously. I connect that with my experience, and it was a very different kind of situation, there wasn't all of the complexities of that. It was more a time when I was trying to express myself in some of the ways that my theology was growing and changing and didn't necessarily line up anymore with what this pastor was preaching. And I wasn't really sure what to do with that. I liked a lot of things about the church, a lot of things about him, but I also felt like church just wasn't vibing with me and where I was at. And I just wanted to share some of the ways that my beliefs were changing and some of the things that he would say in sermons weren't really resonating with me. And I didn't necessarily expect him to change anything, but I did hope that he would listen and that he would hear the things that I was saying as not just about me, but also maybe having some sort of wisdom for how he might speak to my generation in general and to others like me who are also rethinking a lot of things, which is a lot of people, right?
So I shared some of those things, and I was trying to be non-threatening and share about my experience. And I think I mentioned some past church experiences as part of that and he kind of grabbed on to that and asked me that question, “Have you considered therapy?” Which in itself is not a bad question, I mean, I've asked people that too. There are many situations where I don't mind being asked that because I think that therapy can be an amazing thing and a really good and healing part of people's journeys. But to ask about it in that context where I was trying to raise some concerns about preaching or questions about theology, to bring that into that super personal, “Have you considered therapy?”, is really a way of making it all about me and my own issues, right? As opposed to considering whether there are any issues that impact the broader church or issues in his own theology or anything like that. I think that Brené Brown puts some really helpful language to this kind of thing, so I can read a little bit of the book that kind of goes into that.
AA: That would be great.
LJ: She has these terms, she's talking about shame and shame resilience, and she says that there are different things that reinforce shame. For example, individualizing, which is basically saying you're the only one who feels that way. You're the only one who has that issue. And pathologizing, saying that's an issue, there's something wrong with you because you feel that way. So I write: “Responding to someone's church-related frustrations with the question, ‘Have you considered therapy?’ strikes me as a quintessential example of individualizing and pathologizing. It feels like a way of saying, ‘You are the only one. I don't think anyone else feels the same way you do. I don't think you have any legitimate concerns. These are just your individual issues. You should probably try to work through these issues individually in therapy. These are your wounds speaking, your particular pathologies. I am not willing to consider any broader wisdom your experiences might have to offer the church or any insight your perspectives might have to offer my theology.’”
AA: That's so powerful. It really struck home with me too. I've had that identical experience of going in and talking to people and pointing out structural issues and having it be turned on me like, “I don't know what's wrong with you,” and exactly, kind of attributing it to “Have you had some prior experience that makes you overly sensitive to this?” So having that framework of individualizing and pathologizing is really helpful. To have that language and to be able to call it out and say, “Actually, that's kind of beside the point. Maybe I have, maybe I haven't, but that doesn't negate this structural issue that I'm bringing up.”
LJ: Right. Totally.
“Responding to someone’s church-related frustrations with the question, ‘Have you considered therapy?’ strikes me as a quintessential example of individualizing and pathologizing ”
AA: For my last question, I'd love to have you talk a little bit about women who are wanting to stay in their Christian churches, maybe in their particular denomination or in Christianity in general, what are some strategies that you would offer for women who are struggling but do have a deep faith or a deep commitment to their faith tradition and are struggling? What advice would you give to them? And I'll ask you a second question, and that is for women who are wanting to maybe change congregations or denominations. What might they have to look forward to? Because it can be a scary jump to move to something else, and I know that you've actually done that before. What could women look forward to in moving to a different space? So first for women who want to stay, and then for women who want to go.
LJ: I think this relates to both questions. I feel like what's been most helpful and impactful for me is realizing that there is such a wide variety of things that Christianity can look like. For those who have found some value in the Christian tradition, as I have, for those who have a Christian faith that's important to them, there are so many different ways to express that and so many different kinds of communities where people are living out that faith together. It's been really helpful for me to learn, for example, more about the history of the Christian tradition and how there's been this push and pull, in the case of women, between patriarchy and feminism. Even if they weren't called those things, there's been this push and pull for all 2,000 years of Christian history. Feminism is not a new thing of the last few years or a few decades, or even a couple centuries, that women have been advocating for their right to lead and to be fully who they are all throughout that time. So, it's been really powerful for me to recognize myself as a part of this very long tradition of Christian women who believe different things from the dominant patriarchal views of their day, and who are very faithfully Christian and able to live that out. So there's that.
And just realizing that there's so much more to the Bible. I get into this more in the book, so I'll try to be brief here, but there's so much more to the Bible. So many different ways to interpret those passages that sound really limiting toward women, and different ways to see the women who are in scripture and to see them leading and having authority and exercising agency and to see that that's all a good thing. So I think being open to and searching out women's perspectives on theology, on church history, on scripture, and being open to different ways of understanding Christianity, and finding those ways of understanding Christianity that feel free and feel liberating. I think that can all be done within a lot of different contexts, although it might be more popular in some contexts than others, or easier in some contexts than others. But I think sometimes, especially in those more conservative environments, church leaders aren't necessarily going to be pointing you toward the feminist theologians, the female faith writers, people who are saying anything different from what the church is trying to teach. But those people are out there and it's okay to go seek them out. It's good to go seek them out and see what can be learned and what different forms of faith can take. I think that's a little bit more toward those who want to stay.
And I think I would encourage those who want to leave that, again, there are many different forms of churches out there. And I do think that it's worth finding one where you feel free, where you feel seen, where you feel valued. And, you know, in our broader community, societal patriarchy seeps into all these things. But I think that at the very least the doctrines and theology and policies of the church should not be limiting toward women. And there are lots of churches out there that are not that way. I don't want to downplay the hugeness of leaving a community that you've been part of for a long time, or even a tradition or stream of the faith that you've been a part of for a long time. It's huge. It can be really disorienting, it can be really relationally difficult. And at the same time, it can be so freeing and so liberating and so good. And I think for me, I've slowly come around to a point where I feel like all those friendships that I built over those eleven years in that conservative community, we can stay friends as long as they respect where I'm at now and aren't trying to change that or convince me that I'm a heretic or anything like that. As long as we respect one another, it's okay if we disagree. I think I've been able to keep some of those friendships that I didn't necessarily expect to be able to keep, and I think that people who are true, good friends to you, who really care about your wellbeing, will want you to be in a place that supports that wellbeing. That's what I want for people too. I want people to be in places where they feel like they can just be who they are.
AA: That's beautiful. Could you tell us just briefly, the congregation that you're a part of now, what are some of the features of that space that you're in? I guess my question is, have you found what you were looking for? And when things do come up within that space, do you feel like you're heard and taken seriously?
LJ: Yeah, I do feel that way. And I know that that's a privilege. I know that, especially living in the Seattle area, there are maybe more different kinds of progressive faith communities than there might be somewhere else. I say these things knowing that some people have easier access to this than others, but I do think that with enough searching and/or with willingness to be part of online spaces and communities, I do think this is really accessible. Some of the things that I appreciate about the church that I'm now a part of here in the Seattle area, there's just a lot of openness. A lot of openness to different places that people are at and different beliefs that people have. And there's a lot less authoritarianism, like we all have to be believing and doing the same things, that kind of mindset. And that's really freeing.
I think it's really important also for churches to have diverse representation of women, people of color, different ages in the church leadership. That's something that I was definitely looking for when I was looking for a new church in the area. And I think I found that now that I'm going to this church that has a female senior pastor and a lot of female elders and other staff. I don't want to necessarily guess at a percent, but a lot of people at my church are there, at least in part, because our senior pastor is a woman and they felt like they needed that. So it was kind of this unexpected benefit, something that drew all of us in. We have this kind of common frustration with male dominated leadership and sense of a need for something different. And that's been really cool.
AA: And I'll just throw in, because it didn't come up in the conversation prior, but you mention LGBTQ+ rights and affirmations throughout your book. I know that that was something that was important to you too, and I imagine that was something on your list of priorities that you were looking for. Is that right?
LJ: Yeah. And it's been a while since I was looking for a new church, so I'm not sure if I can speak to the last few years. But at least at the time, there's a church clarity website that lists different churches and whether or not they're queer affirming as well as women in ministry affirming. So that was a helpful resource, as well as just thinking about the different denominations and their theological stances.
AA: Wonderful. Again, I want to thank you so much for your book and for the conversation. Liz Cooledge Jenkins wrote this wonderful book, Nice Churchy Patriarchy: Reclaiming Women's Humanity from Evangelicalism. I enjoyed it so much and I learned so much from you, Liz. Thanks so much for being here today.
LJ: Thank you so much for having me.
